I don't think the Pope was wrong to call out these "peaceful Muslims" but I do wonder about the whole "faith and reason" thing. When I hear those words together, I keep thinking of the phrase from the catechism "I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to Him." Also the Bible passage that talks about how the wisdom of God is the foolishness of men. True, we don't have to "check our brains at the door" to receive God's gift of redemption, but God has revealed things about Himself through His Word and Spirit apart from human reason. I hope you don't see this as criticism. I've waited to post this because I've been turning it over in my mind, and I just have this uncertainty about the whole faith/reason issue. What do you think?

Hi Barb,

No, I don't see it as criticism at all and I understand what you're saying. Here's how I look at it: the relationship between faith and reason is paradoxical rather than contradictory. Yes, faith is something that lies beyond reason. But yet faith can be perfectly reasonable. One example I can think of is the book Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. In the book, Lewis shows how it is perfectly reasonable to come to the conclusion that 1) there is an objective right and wrong, 2) there is a God and 3) that Christianity is true. I hope this makes some sense.

I was reminded of the following verse the other day and I think it applies here:

Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be eaten by the sword; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.” -- Isaiah 1:18-20

Is this what the world has become? People arguing with each other over whose god is better, whether or not someone should get an abortion, or how other people are reacting? I mean, I think the Pope should worry about things going on in his own church before he casts judgement on others.

I think what it all comes down to is that this is the inherent problem with religion today - when people get so wrapped up in religion, letting it consume their lives, and interpret the bible in a literal sense, they become intolerant of any other point of view. When you begin to take those beliefs that you have and hold them up as the "be all and end all and any thing else doesn't matter", that is where you lose me.

I understand that you* might have a strong belief about something, but that doesn't mean you have a right to tell me that that is how I should feel as well. Quite frankly, I think both groups involved in this are being ridiculous.. they're all acting like children in high school ("oh, my god is better then your god, so there").

Don't get me wrong, you can *be* spiritual without being overly religious and this was not meant to be an attack on any one specific ("you" is meant in the general sense) but, for the sake of everyone in the world, if you feel the need to worship someone (whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, or etc), just do so in your own way and be respectful of everyone else's choice as well. Well, back to lurking! :)

Please don't be disingenous, Todd. The Pope was not telling Muslims how to worship. He was telling them, "Maybe if you guys quit beheading 'infidels,' stoning women for the crime of being raped, encasing your women in cloth sacks, hanging homesexuals, etc, etc, etc, people might take you and your religion more seriously, and get along with you better." While at an amusement park last year, I saw a Muslim in the middle of a greenery space on his prayer mat. Did I want to rush over and beat him? No. But he or any other Muslim that thinks their duty is to kill the infidels, like many in the Muslim religion believe and teach he'll have another thing coming before he messes with me. Or the Muslims who have settled in Australia and think it's perfectly okay to rape white Australian girls because they're infidels and they dress like whores (i.e. not in cloth sacks) and try to get out of punishment because, hey, that's just our culture. You really ought to go check out Sweetness and Light (link in Susan's sidebar) to see how wonderful the Muslim religion is. And you're darn tootin' it matters how other people are reacting. The Muslims reacted by shooting a nun. Murder in cold blood matters to me. Rape matters to me.

And yes, abortion matters to me. Because abortion is also murder. An individual life is lost for no other reason than because the mom doesn't want it. People get upset and prosecute those who beat their babies to death and dump them in quarries, or throw them in a creek with the umbilical cord still attached. But burning them to death with saline, or pulling them part way out and poking scissors in their head and sucking their brains out, or leaving them on a shelf to die slowly if they survive an abortion, those things are okay because the child is still hidden by cover of the womb? Abortion matters because life matters, because taking lives is wrong. Any society that does not value life will not value your life either, sooner or later. Or will you just do society a favor and kill yourself for us when you get to old to "contribute" or start getting Alzheimer's?

How does interpreting the Bible in a literal sense make us "intolerant" of any other point of view? The only ones I see literally killing for their faith are the Muslims, and, well, they don't really interpret the Bible in a literal sense. Or have you ever read it to know?

Of course what I believe is important to me, otherwise I wouldn't believe it. Duh. That doesn't mean you have to believe it. But the values that this country holds matter. What two people or however many people do in a bedroom is not an issue, until I have to *approve it*, and financially subsidize it through healthcare plans. Not to mention, the family does matter. A strong home and a strong two-parents-of-the-opposite-gender family are the best way to raise children. And raising sound children matters to the country, because they become the adults that run it, that do its work.

It seems to me, Todd, that you are rather willfully obtuse. I'm beginning to suspect you of being a troll.

Todd,

Unfortunately, I'm really pressed for time today, so I will try to respond as quickly as I can...

You may believe all religions are wrong, and you are free to do that. But the thing is, there is an objective truth and an objective right and wrong. What is true and what isn't and what is wrong or right isn't up to our personal whims. And, as Barb pointed out, these things really do matter.

As for Islam, I didn't really give it a second thought until 9/11 happened. Until then, to me, it was just another false religion. But after finding out the kind of imperialist mindset that drives Islamist extremism, I realized that this is a real problem that people need to address. It's more than just "my religion is better than yours". If someone doesn't want to be a Christian, nobody is going to force you to be one. Radical Muslims aren't nearly so tolerant.

I wasn't making a comment directly to the comments themselves, but to a culmination of things over the past that's been going on. It's just ridiculous how many arguments get started because of religion. You can find extreme reactions in every religion - heck, people have bombed abortion clinics here in the United States over that particular issue (or even used religion in a militaristic sense, going back in time to the Crusades).

I wasn't saying that everyone who studies one particular religion is intolerant. I wasn't directing my comments to anyone on this blog even (I wouldn't do that) - I consider myself spiritual as well, even though I might not believe in an actual being known as god.

The point is that you can find radicalism in just about every religion, unfortunately, and it just makes no sense to have people come out and criticize or comment on something because it will only lead to more fighting (physical or otherwise).

As it is, I just don't understand why the Pope feels the need to come out and criticize someone else's religion in the first place, when, at least here in Boston, the Catholic church has a bit of their own problems as it is.

The abortion topic is a bit sticky and can never lead anywhere good, so I won't go there and fill up the comments here.

Todd,

Thanks for clarifying that your statements weren't aimed at me or the other commenters on this blog.

Believe me, I remember the anti-abortion violence all too well. A lot of it happened in the city where I live. And yes, the Crusades happened during a time in Christendom where church and state were too closely wrapped up together.

As for the Pope, from what I understand, the line in the speech where he criticized Islam was just a small part of an entire speech to academics about various issues. The media took the one line where he was critical of the violent elements of Islam and made a big deal about it. It is as if the media wanted to feed fresh meat to the Muslim hordes and cause more trouble.

However, as far as I'm concerned, the Pope has every right to criticize the violent elements of Islam. And my understanding is that the Catholic Church is trying to resolve its own problems and make amends.

If we can't criticise anyone because of what other people like us are doing elsewhere or did in the past, we might as well cut out our own tongues and chop off our fingers so we can't type. Saying that the pope can't point out the problems inherent in another religion's approach to conversion because the Catholic Church has had a questionable history is just ridiculous. Notice that our enemies have no such qualms.

Hi Andrea,

Well said! Our enemies never seem to question themselves...it never occurs to them that they have ever done anything wrong. We are always evaluating ourselves and we try and make amends for our mistakes.

The Pope has every right to point out the problem of radicalism and violence in Islam. And we all have that right. I'm not about to shut up about it and neither should the Pope.